tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post8647415034230051195..comments2024-03-21T03:55:51.565-07:00Comments on Omniorthogonal: Phil Agre, an appreciationmtravenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02356162954308418556noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post-369112328418813312017-05-07T20:11:35.112-07:002017-05-07T20:11:35.112-07:00I hope he is ok.I hope he is ok.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post-34341298252799853062009-12-04T07:56:47.087-08:002009-12-04T07:56:47.087-08:00I think Phil should perhaps have used a different ...I think Phil should perhaps have used a different word than "conservatism" because that term already has a lot of baggage. Perhaps what he writes about could simply be called "elitism", as in: "elitism is the domination of society by an aristocracy."Sebastienhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15951786591785800320noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post-67979225301436540402009-12-01T17:41:38.608-08:002009-12-01T17:41:38.608-08:00Phil's essay on conservatism is fantastic. He...Phil's essay on conservatism is fantastic. He articulates many of the various half-formed thoughts I've had regarding their rhetoric much better than I ever could. I don't find anything he wrote controversial in the least.hoyhoyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04053951858615655859noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post-63801068464305464482009-11-28T10:43:35.429-08:002009-11-28T10:43:35.429-08:00Facts are facts, but "conservatism" is n...Facts are facts, but "conservatism" is not a well-defined thing, so if Agre tells a story about conservatism that doesn't match your preconceived notions, a sensible response to is to think if there is some other reasonable definition of "conservatism" that makes the rest of his story make sense. <br /><br />I suppose the reason Moldbug's writing was initially interesting to me is because it required this sort of effort for me to read. What assumptions does it take to make this stuff make sense, given that it it conflicts at almost every point with my values? Unfortunately he got way too far out of step with reality for me to continue. I think it was the point where he insisted that journalists and academics were the most powerful people in the world; and the corollary that the entire Western world was run out of Cambridge MA, where I finally said enough. A pity, because the core of his belief system is coherent and is at least worth arguing against. <br /><br />Bryan Caplan believes that "Ayn Rand was an excellent novelist". The mind boggles. As to philosophy in general, see the tagline above, or you would probably like <a href="http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/wrongthoughts.html" rel="nofollow">David Stove</a> who <a href="http://omniorthogonal.blogspot.com/2008/06/bruce-here-teaches-logical-positivism.html" rel="nofollow">I tackled earlier</a>. But actually I am (sometimes) more favorably disposed towards philosophy than that stuff would indicate. Most philosophy is crap of course, but most of anything is. Like Agre's piece, you need to make an effort to understand what it is trying to say, what kind of conversation it is part of.mtravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356162954308418556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post-44176380426209158472009-11-26T13:56:15.263-08:002009-11-26T13:56:15.263-08:00When reading that (or anything outside your comfor...<i>When reading that (or anything outside your comfort zone) I suggest not getting hung up on individual assertions and trying to imagine the sort of world the author is trying to convey.</i><br />Mencius Moldbug has quite an imagination and writing talent to convey it. His individual assertions are often contradictory or just false. That trait indicates to me a sort of performance art rather than dedication to truth. When Bryan Caplan <a href="http://econlog.econlib.org/archives/2005/02/join_the_party.html" rel="nofollow">argues</a> that other famous philosophers were just as bad as Rand, I don't take that to indicate that I should give Rand a chance. It tells me to discount the rest of them along with her.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post-90304678589134733072009-11-24T19:46:33.484-08:002009-11-24T19:46:33.484-08:00TGGP: Who? OK, I can Google, but why should I care...TGGP: Who? OK, I can Google, but why should I care?<br /><br />Agre's Conservatism essay does go a bit overboard in my opinion in projecting the current split between conservatives and democrats back through thousands of years of history. If I had to guess, when he said that conservatism is "incompatible with civilization" he meant that it's incompatible with the sort we would like to have, one that is dynamic, innovative, at least somewhat rational.<br /><br />When reading that (or anything outside your comfort zone) I suggest not getting hung up on individual assertions and trying to imagine the sort of world the author is trying to convey. That's a trick I may have learned from Phil, now that I think about it.mtravenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02356162954308418556noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post-20957576068855909512009-11-23T21:11:31.193-08:002009-11-23T21:11:31.193-08:00Ilkka Kokkarinen would have a field day with this ...Ilkka Kokkarinen would have a field day with this story. I don't think his personal problems means there was necessarily anything wrong with his ideas though, as a sort of reverse halo-effect.<br /><br />I couldn't get past where he said conservatism was incompatible with civilization. He had just stated that the Egyptians and Romans were characterized by conservatism, and they're prototypical civilizations. The thing about conservatism having to re-invent itself each generation makes sense in the current context, saying that it's about aristocracy doesn't.TGGPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11017651009634767649noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post-49725229228939276572009-11-22T21:54:52.907-08:002009-11-22T21:54:52.907-08:00I don't think Phil deliberately isolated himse...I don't think Phil deliberately isolated himself. I rather think he failed to deliberately integrate himself socially while, as you say, the meds had not yet run out. I know that his physically present colleagues saw him slipping away, but were unable to do anything both for legal reasons (adult in a free society) and for social reasons (zone of privacy that Phil carved out). Perhaps those who were socially close with Phil spoke up as much as they could. I don't know them or what they have done. I only know my own feelings of loss.<br /><br />I do worry that he is at a marked disadvantage right now and is unable to make his needs known (to himself or others). The Los Angeles I know isn't full of lost people, but it is full of places one can lose oneself if one chooses to.riffraff814https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745332843440051141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post-48042609273950064642009-11-22T21:22:41.718-08:002009-11-22T21:22:41.718-08:00I too remember RRE with fondness. He described &q...I too remember RRE with fondness. He described "On Bullshit" long before Harry Frankfurter did. I only had the pleasure of meeting Agre once, and found him charming. I too don't know how a person with such an obviously wide social circle could just disappear without anyone noticing. Sure, California is full of lost people, but I doubt it's as deliberate as the previous commenter suggested. Sometimes the meds run out and you just can't get it together enough to refill.jlredfordnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-15644559.post-35395361308515378312009-11-21T12:40:23.274-08:002009-11-21T12:40:23.274-08:00I'm not sure it's an indictment of anyone,...I'm not sure it's an indictment of anyone, except perhaps Phil, himself. As an adult in a free society, Phil often made the choice toward privacy. That very innate behavior of his caused many to feel as if they would be intruding should they offer ... to help? to talk? Had he, instead, formed a bit more of a social web of contacts who would notice his withdrawal and feel comfortable remarking to him upon it, things would (I hope) have gone differently.<br /><br />The onus is on Phil, in many respects, to allow us in and indicate what we can do for him. We can not force ourselves upon him.<br /><br />I do hope he returns and gives us an opportunity to extend ourselves on his behalf. I can tell there are many who are aching to do so.riffraff814https://www.blogger.com/profile/11745332843440051141noreply@blogger.com